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Question and Answer with "Homeless" Kodo
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Edited by Shohaku Okumura
Interviewer: Shunpei Ueyama
Recorded March 2, 1965.
Broadcast March 7 by NHK)
Announcer: This morning Mr. Shunpei Ueyama (U), assistant professor at Kyoto University Research Center for the Cultural Sciences, is interviewing Kodo Sawaki (S), a Zen master and Professor emeritus at Komazawa University. This year Kodo Sawaki is eighty four years old. He currently lives at Antaiji temple in Takagamine, Kitaku, Kyotoshi. Antaiji is a zendo that belongs to the Soto School. He is often called by his nickname “Homeless” Kodo. He never had his own house or temple. He was born in 1880 as a son of a jinrikisha parts maker in Tsu city, Mie Prefecture. His parents died when he was very young and his family was torn apart. Rev. Sawaki was adopted by a lantern maker who was actually a gambler. However, when he was sixteen years old, he escaped from his stepparents’ home and went to Eiheiji. Since then he has been traveling all over Japan, literally like floating clouds or flowing water until today.
Antaiji
U: Well, this is a very quiet residence. How long has it been since you’ve moved here?
S: Here?
U: Yes. This temple.
S: I used to come back here only once a month [ to lead a sesshin until I retired]. But he (Rev. Kosho Uchiyama) and others have been here for sixteen years. Yes, this is 16th year.
U: I see. This temple does not belong to any particular school, does it?
S: Yes, this is a Soto-shu temple.
U: Is that so?
S: This temple was established as a study monastery for the students of Sotoshu study. Therefore this is not an ordinary temple that is supported by family members. Eto Sokuo, the former president of Komazawa University, was the abbot of this temple. But that was the abbot only by name. He did not take care of this temple at all. When he died, he asked me to be the abbot of this temple. I reluctantly accepted the request. Until we entered, this was like a ghost temple.
U: I see. This was a dilapidated building, wasn’t it?
S: Many evacuees lived in this temple [in the end of the war and after the war until we entered in 1949].
U: I see.
S: A tubercular victim died right in this room.
U: Really!
S: Another tubercular patient lived in the other room. So many things happened.
A man of leisure
U: Roshi, you used to be very busy, weren’t you?
S: Yes, I was.
U: From a long time ago?
S: Yes.
U: However, it seems that now you always stay at this temple and spend relatively quiet days. What do you do every day?
S: It is strange but I am not bored at all.
U: Are you not?
S: No.
U: What kind of things do you do?
S: I read books every day.
U: What did you read recently?
S: I read various kinds of books. Until I retired, I read only the texts I had to study for my responsibility.
U: I understand. Ha, ha, ha.
S: It is nice to read interesting books such as the books about the primitive people in Papua New Guinea.
U: Wow.
S: I read two books written about the natives. One was by a German and another was by a Japanese author.
U: What did you think about the one written by the Japanese?
S: That one was much more interesting.
U: Is that so? Ha, ha, ha.
S: You must envy a man of leisure, don’t you? Ha, ha, ha.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
How Sawaki Roshi encountered with zazen
U: By the way, Roshi! When did you practice Zen for the first time?
S: That was,….
U: Yes.
S: I started to practice miraculously early age.
U: Is that so?
S: I first went to Eiheiji because I wanted to become a monk.
U: Did you go to Eiheiji first?
S: Yes. I escaped from my life as a lantern maker at my stepparents’ house.
U: I see.
S: At Eiheiji, of course, they had formal practice of zazen.
U: Uum.
S: But monks did practice zazen but their hearts were not in it.
U: Really?
S: Monks practiced it against their wishes. Once, I went to,….presently Awara town.
U: Yes.
S: There was a temple named Ryuunji in Honjo, Awara. I was sent with several monks from Eiheiji to help the Obon festival at the temple. The Obon was over with the segaki (feeding hungry-ghost) ceremony. Everything was over. The next day the temple priest took the monks from Eiheiji to acknowledge their services.
U: OK.
S: [I was not invited, but] the priest told me that I did not need to do anything any more, just enjoy myself.
U: I see.
S: However, because I had been always working hard [since I was thirteen years old]…
U: Yes.
S: I had never enjoyed myself.
U: You had never enjoyed yourself! Ha, ha, ha.
S: I did not know how to be idle for a day. Even until now, I never had been idle even for a short while.
U: Ha, ha, ha. Is that so?
S: I always do something.
U: OK.
S: I had learned how to sit zazen at Eiheiji.
U: Yes.
S: I went to the inner room and practiced zazen by myself. While I was sitting, the old kitchen maid….
U: Yes.
S: She came to the inner room to return the table wares used for the ceremonies and she washed and wiped.
U: OK.
S: She opened the sliding paper door of the room where I was sitting.
U: Yes.
S: She found that I was sitting zazen.
U: Yes.
S: The bossy old woman always used me as if I was her servant.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: And yet, she wholeheartedly chanted, “I take refuge in Buddha; I take refuge in Dharma; I take refuge in Sangha; I take refuge in Shakyamuni Buddha…” She made prostration so politely toward me as if she did to the Buddha. I wondered, “This old woman who used me like her servant, made prostration politely as if she does to the Buddha. Although I don’t understand because I never studied Buddhism, there must be something sacred in zazen. I would be able to understand when I study.” I understood to the innermost of the meaning of zazen practice even before I studied anything about it.
U: I see.
S: That was very miraculous. I grasped the real thing before studying about it.
U: I see.
S: Study is later [than experiencing the real thing].
U: I see.
S: Study is only about resides. Then I traveled to Amakusa in Kyushu without money.
U: Was that after the experience?
S: Yes, that was the sequence.
U: What do you mean?
S: I had to go through a lot of hardships.
U: Did you walk ploddingly all the way to Amakusa?
S: Yes, I went on foot.
U: What was your motivation?
S: My motivation? I found that I was not be able to become a monk at Eiheiji, [and I tried to find a priest who would ordain me, I could not find anyone.] One monk I knew at Eiheiji said that his master would be willing to make me his disciple. That was why I went to Amakusa. At first, that monk said that he would offer the travel expense to me. But when I was ready to go, he said that he did not have the money.
U: What?
S: If I went back [to my stepparents’ house], I had to do the lantern repairing work again.
U: I understand. Ha, ha, ha.
S: I would not like to live with my stepparents. I thought it would be better to go forward toward the direction I wished to go. I believed I would be able to manage somehow or another. Yes, I had a lot of hardships.
Zen and Studying Buddhism
U: By the way, at Horyuji,…..
S: Yes.
U: You studied Buddhim. Was that Yuishiki (Yogacara, consciousness only) teaching?
S: Yes, that is right.
U: Was the knowledge you attained through studying the Buddhist teachings meaningful in your later life?
S: Well, such Buddhist studies,…. In Nara, it is said that Yuishiki is about memorizing, Kusha (Abhidharma Kosa) is about getting used to.
U: Yes.
S: I studied Yuishiki-ron (texts on Yogacara teachings), Kusha-ron (Abhidharma Kosa) and so on.
U: Yes.
S: These are the rudiment study of Buddhist philosophy.
U: I understand.
S: Zen is beyond studying.
U: Yes.
S: And yet, after I became a professor of Komazawa University,…
U: Yes.
S: People thought that I had only practiced zazen. They did not know that I studied Yuishiki, Kusha and so on. My students said that Zen is great, without studying, everything I said was in accordance with Buddhist study. People said such a thing when I began to teach at Komazawa University.
U: I see. I don’t know much about Yuishiki and Kusha. In a sense, these have very strict logic.
S: Yes, these are very logical.
U: These have very precise logic, right?
S: Yes.
U: You studied such logical teachings and also practice Zen. It seems to me that Zen is transcending logic. I suppose not many Zen practitioners study Yuishiki and so on, do they?
S: You are correct. Because they do not study basic teachings of Buddhism, they become non-Buddhist.
U: I see. Ha, ha, ha.
S: However, that person (pointing to the photo of Rev. Ryoun Fueoka hanging in the room), who used to be a teacher at Sotoshu Daigakurin (presently Komazawa University) advised me, “If you practice Zen without understanding the basic study of Buddhist teachings, it is like to do merchandize without using a scale and a measure. It is very dangerous.” That was why, after Russo-Japan War, I went to Horyuji. Because I am a man of leisure, I studied there for eight years.
U: Is that right?
S: Yes. Because I was a “homeless,” I didn’t have my home to return. I didn’t need to go home. Because I did not need to go home, when other students went back to their home temples, at Horyuji, I studied Shobogenzo, and all other things.
Essence of Zen
U: I see. But, what is the most important trait of Zen? I know it is difficult to say in a few words.
S: Bodhidharma said, “Empty, without holiness.” This is it.
U: Yes.
S: “Empty, without holiness.” It is off the mark if there is even a particle of artificial dogmatism. There is not a bit of arbitrary view at all. Yes, “Empty, without holiness.” “Not seeking after the truth.”
U: Yes. “Not seeking after the truth.”
S: “Simply stop your personal view.” A view is how we see things [based on our karmic consciousness].
U: Yes. “Stop your personal view.” We should stop.
S: “Stop seeking after truth.” “Just stop your personal view.”
U: I see.
S: Then, things are just as they are. When we see them, each of us views them in various different ways. That is not right. When we say, I seek after the truth, the truth is different depending upon our karmic experiences.
U: Yes.
S: Therefore, we cannot tell whether what each of us view is really true or not. “Do not seek after the truth.” “Simply stop your personal view.” I interpret “to see” as making an arbitrary dogma.
U: I see.
S: “View is,…”
U: Yes.
S: The current problem of ideology is about the arbitrary dogma, isn’t it?
U: Well, yes, it is.
S: Then, finally, we have to stop talking and sit silently.
U: Ha, ha, ha. I understand.
S: Sitting is only thing we can do.
Zen and Science
U: Yes. Yes. In that case, today, science exercises its authority and influences every aspect of human life.
S: Yes. Yes.
U: Instead of stop talking,…
S: Yes.
U: Science creates various theories one after another and also produce so many things. All people study them. In general, as the driving force of the human civilization, we appreciate it. I feel Zen is going to entirely different direction from science.
S: Yes, these are going very different directions.
U: Then, from the standpoint of Zen, is there something wrong about science is doing now?
S: Science has no end point, does it?
U: No, but is there any end point in Zen?
S: Human being are used by science that has no end point, aren’t we?
U: Well,…
S: You said in Zen, but in the world of truth,…
U: Yes.
S: There is neither beginning nor end.
U: OK.
S: Always, either among the people in the primitive ages, or the people in the civilized ages, there is something common. Zen can go in the common realm in the same way. We can go in the same way, and yet, because of the development of science, all people in the world have anxieties. “If someone pushes the one button [of the nuclear weapon],…”
U: Yes.
S: Ha, ha, ha. We cannot say that there is no possibility that a crazy person pushes the button. Even if a crazy person push the button, the damage we would have should be the same. We cannot tell who are the civilized people. In comparison with such a situation, just sitting must be,….
U: Well.
S: Much safer. We human beings are getting busier and busier being used by scientific civilization. Ha, ha, ha.
Zazen and Formality
U: You said that Zen is seeing things as they really are. However, for example, in the case of zazen, the form is very strict. [Dogen Zenji] wrote in Shobogenzo much about formality.
S: Yes.
U: And also, another example is,… I heard that you have made a lot of efforts for studying the kashaya robe (okesa) and put emphasis on sewing and wearing authentic okesa. I don’t quite understand why such a strict formality has something to do with Zen practice [that has no forms or beyond formality]. It seems that such a strict formality is not necessary anymore. If Zen practice is just being as it is, why we need to adhere to such formalities?
S: There is nothing difficult in it.
U: Yes, no, no, but only,…
S: And yet, in the world of truth,… The form of zazen,… For example, when I do this (He pulled his eye’s eyelid down and stick out his tongue. In Japanese culture, this gesture called akanbe shows disrespect or disparagement to the person in front.), what do you feel?
U: I see.
S: Right! And when I put on okesa,…
U: Uum…
S: What do you feel? When I sat zazen, how people feel? When I was a young temple worker, even the kitchen hag made prostration to my zazen.
U: I see.
S: There is an important point there.
U: I see.
S: This is the reason, it is said [in Soto Zen tradition], “The dignified decorum is itself buddha dharma.” The buddha dharma is [practiced and expressed within formalities]. First of all, we should straighten ourselves and set to the right form. Dogen Zenji also put emphasis to practice with very strict forms.
U: OK.
S: In that sense, to straighten up ourselves within forms is important. Therefore, in my practice, I always say, “Wearing okesa and sit zazen, that is it.”
U: I see.
S: Right here, we find spiritual peace and upright way of life.
U: OK.
S: We don’t need anything else.
U: I see.
S: If you have wide knowledge about various studies, that is fine. If you don’t, that is fine too. You don’t need to give up what you already have. You don’t need to seek after something you don’t have yet. This is why people call my style of practice, Kesa School.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: I am a priest of Kesa School. In my School, wearing okesa and sit zazen, that is all. You, see?
Zazen and Precepts
U: I understand. In that case, the Precepts,… People often talk about Buddhist precepts, such as the five precepts [for lay people] or the ten major precepts [for bodhisattvas],…
S: Yes.
U: What do you think about these precepts from the stand point of Zen?
S: Well. The standpoint? The origin of the precepts was that when some monks made mistakes, Shakyamuni Buddha admonished them [and said not to do such a thing again.]
U: I see.
S: When some one made misdeed about women, or picking up someone’s possessions and hide them, each time his disciples made misdeed, the Buddha made prohibition….. [But in Zen, for example] in the One-mind Precepts attributed to Bodhidharma, it is said, “Receiving in ‘receiving the precepts’ is transmitting.”
U: Uum.
S: And “transmitting is awakening.” Realization (satori),…
U: Uum.
S: “Realizing the Buddha mind is truly receiving the precepts.”
U: I see.
S: Therefore, realizing Shakyamuni Buddha’s mind is truly receiving the precepts.
U: I see.
S: This is why there is an expression, “Zen and the precepts are one (Zen-kai-ichinyo).” Zazen and the precepts (ethics) are one. When we are sitting zazen, we cannot commit adultery. While we are sitting, we cannot steal anything.
Leaving home
U: Roshi,…from my amateur point of view,…Originally Shakyamuni Buddha abandoned his family and left home. Since then, Buddhist monks have been called home-leavers. However, today, [Japanese] Buddhist priest/monks enter their home, instead of leaving home. Many of them have family. I think, this is very much different from the original way of Buddhist monk/priests should be. Could you speak what do you think about the current situation of Buddhism [in Japan]?
S: Japanese Buddhist monk/priests are not really home-leavers. Therefore, Menzan, a famous Japanese Soto Zen monk-scholar, said that, “To become a monk is not just moving from the building with thatched-roof (houses for lay people) to the tiled-roof building (Buddhist temples).”
U: Uum.
S: This kind of things have been said from the ancient times. If we are careless, to become a monk/priest simply means to change our business. But to become a monk should not be changing from one business to the other. I have been “homeless.” Kosho (Uchiyama) said, “You have been successful.”
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: There are many different kinds of success.
U: And, so,…
S: I feel I have been most fortunate. Yes. Nothing is matter. I have nothing lacking. Here, I have nothing lacking, this, this, this,…
U: And yet, ordinary people think, they would have inconvenient lives in poverty. Then they learn some skills to get some profession. Even Buddhist priests work hard to increase the family members of their temples [to make their lives secure]. But Roshi, it seems all of your needs, either clothing and foods come naturally to you. This must be a mystery for many people.
S: This person (pointing to Rev. Kosho Uchiyama), had difficulties to live on begging (takuhatsu).
U: Really?
S: There is a poem by Daichi Zenji:
昼入荒村行乞食
夜帰林下坐安禅
出家親践古人道
糞掃許他迦葉伝
In the daytime, I go to a ramshackle village and practice begging foods.
In the evening, return to the temple in the forest and peacefully sit zazen.
Leaving home, I intimately practice the ancient people’s way.
Being permitted to receive the patched-robe transmitted from Mahakasyapa.
It is truly grateful for us to be able to live in this way. Because I had been busy to travel all over Japan, I did not have time to practice takuhatsu (begging) except when I was the leader of the training monks at a monastery.
U: Yes.
S: Because I am a master of nonpaying lodging. You see,…
U: I see. However, I suppose even Zen priests desire to live with their family and relatives, surrounded by their children when they are aged. Don’t you wish to live such a way at all? For example, having children,….
S: Uum.
U: Have you ever compare your current life with the life with family?
S: Well, I think,….
U: What I don’t understand is that when aged, I suppose people usually become fainthearted and want to live with beloved grandchildren.
S: Ha, ha, ha.
U: I sometime think that it might be desirable to live together with babies or small grandchildren.
S: No. I never think of children [or any family connection.].
U: Is that right?
S: I think I am fortunate. If I have children or grandchildren, I need to take care of them or worry about them. It is not easy, but I am alone. And I live lacking nothing. This is really grateful. Even though, I am a “homeless,” I can stay a place like this, even though it is not a luxurious but rather a tumbledown building. It is wonderful. Here we have many different kinds of wild vegetables. And they cook them for me. I can see birds flying. In the autumn, I can see the beautiful colors of leaves. It becomes bright red. Really, there is no one who is happier than me. Ha, ha, ha.
Role of Buddhism in the modern society
U: I see. Finally, I would like to ask you to talk about the role of Buddhism in the modern society. What can Buddhism contribute to the people in the modern society? I think many people are interested in this point.
S: Many people talk about some “contribution” Buddhism can offer. But many of them don’t really understand what Buddhism is and who Shakyamuni Buddha was. I mean, why Shakyamuni left home? What was his realization? This is the very important point. It is difficult to really understand, but this is important. And yet, such essential points are lacking in the Buddhist temples and empty temple buildings and memorial services for family members and so on are remaining. What is the most essential thing? If we say that is satori, that is a mistake. If we say that is practice, that is also a mistake. After all, that is to discover the true self and live out the true self. In other word, all people become “homeless.”
U: I undestand.
S: It is a mistake to think that we have “home.” People compete to get the “home.” Ha, ha, ha.
U: You said that it is best if all people become “homeless.” I think it is very difficult.
S: It is a mistake to think that we have “home.”
U: I see. But how did you reach such a state of mind?
S: Originally all human beings are “homeless.”
U: I understand but, all people, starting from being “homeless,” work hard to build their “home” don’t they?
S: Then they struggle and compete each other to get more than others.
U: That is true.
S: When we compete with others to get more, we are in the realm of asura (fighting spirit). We are all ordinary deluded human beings.
U: yes.
S: We all makes mistakes.
U: Yes.
S: We need to accept and forgive each other’s mistakes as a custom and support each other. This is the only way we can live.
U: Ha, ha, ha. We run out of time. Thank you very much for a long time.
Interviewer: Shunpei Ueyama
Recorded March 2, 1965.
Broadcast March 7 by NHK)
Announcer: This morning Mr. Shunpei Ueyama (U), assistant professor at Kyoto University Research Center for the Cultural Sciences, is interviewing Kodo Sawaki (S), a Zen master and Professor emeritus at Komazawa University. This year Kodo Sawaki is eighty four years old. He currently lives at Antaiji temple in Takagamine, Kitaku, Kyotoshi. Antaiji is a zendo that belongs to the Soto School. He is often called by his nickname “Homeless” Kodo. He never had his own house or temple. He was born in 1880 as a son of a jinrikisha parts maker in Tsu city, Mie Prefecture. His parents died when he was very young and his family was torn apart. Rev. Sawaki was adopted by a lantern maker who was actually a gambler. However, when he was sixteen years old, he escaped from his stepparents’ home and went to Eiheiji. Since then he has been traveling all over Japan, literally like floating clouds or flowing water until today.
Antaiji
U: Well, this is a very quiet residence. How long has it been since you’ve moved here?
S: Here?
U: Yes. This temple.
S: I used to come back here only once a month [ to lead a sesshin until I retired]. But he (Rev. Kosho Uchiyama) and others have been here for sixteen years. Yes, this is 16th year.
U: I see. This temple does not belong to any particular school, does it?
S: Yes, this is a Soto-shu temple.
U: Is that so?
S: This temple was established as a study monastery for the students of Sotoshu study. Therefore this is not an ordinary temple that is supported by family members. Eto Sokuo, the former president of Komazawa University, was the abbot of this temple. But that was the abbot only by name. He did not take care of this temple at all. When he died, he asked me to be the abbot of this temple. I reluctantly accepted the request. Until we entered, this was like a ghost temple.
U: I see. This was a dilapidated building, wasn’t it?
S: Many evacuees lived in this temple [in the end of the war and after the war until we entered in 1949].
U: I see.
S: A tubercular victim died right in this room.
U: Really!
S: Another tubercular patient lived in the other room. So many things happened.
A man of leisure
U: Roshi, you used to be very busy, weren’t you?
S: Yes, I was.
U: From a long time ago?
S: Yes.
U: However, it seems that now you always stay at this temple and spend relatively quiet days. What do you do every day?
S: It is strange but I am not bored at all.
U: Are you not?
S: No.
U: What kind of things do you do?
S: I read books every day.
U: What did you read recently?
S: I read various kinds of books. Until I retired, I read only the texts I had to study for my responsibility.
U: I understand. Ha, ha, ha.
S: It is nice to read interesting books such as the books about the primitive people in Papua New Guinea.
U: Wow.
S: I read two books written about the natives. One was by a German and another was by a Japanese author.
U: What did you think about the one written by the Japanese?
S: That one was much more interesting.
U: Is that so? Ha, ha, ha.
S: You must envy a man of leisure, don’t you? Ha, ha, ha.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
How Sawaki Roshi encountered with zazen
U: By the way, Roshi! When did you practice Zen for the first time?
S: That was,….
U: Yes.
S: I started to practice miraculously early age.
U: Is that so?
S: I first went to Eiheiji because I wanted to become a monk.
U: Did you go to Eiheiji first?
S: Yes. I escaped from my life as a lantern maker at my stepparents’ house.
U: I see.
S: At Eiheiji, of course, they had formal practice of zazen.
U: Uum.
S: But monks did practice zazen but their hearts were not in it.
U: Really?
S: Monks practiced it against their wishes. Once, I went to,….presently Awara town.
U: Yes.
S: There was a temple named Ryuunji in Honjo, Awara. I was sent with several monks from Eiheiji to help the Obon festival at the temple. The Obon was over with the segaki (feeding hungry-ghost) ceremony. Everything was over. The next day the temple priest took the monks from Eiheiji to acknowledge their services.
U: OK.
S: [I was not invited, but] the priest told me that I did not need to do anything any more, just enjoy myself.
U: I see.
S: However, because I had been always working hard [since I was thirteen years old]…
U: Yes.
S: I had never enjoyed myself.
U: You had never enjoyed yourself! Ha, ha, ha.
S: I did not know how to be idle for a day. Even until now, I never had been idle even for a short while.
U: Ha, ha, ha. Is that so?
S: I always do something.
U: OK.
S: I had learned how to sit zazen at Eiheiji.
U: Yes.
S: I went to the inner room and practiced zazen by myself. While I was sitting, the old kitchen maid….
U: Yes.
S: She came to the inner room to return the table wares used for the ceremonies and she washed and wiped.
U: OK.
S: She opened the sliding paper door of the room where I was sitting.
U: Yes.
S: She found that I was sitting zazen.
U: Yes.
S: The bossy old woman always used me as if I was her servant.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: And yet, she wholeheartedly chanted, “I take refuge in Buddha; I take refuge in Dharma; I take refuge in Sangha; I take refuge in Shakyamuni Buddha…” She made prostration so politely toward me as if she did to the Buddha. I wondered, “This old woman who used me like her servant, made prostration politely as if she does to the Buddha. Although I don’t understand because I never studied Buddhism, there must be something sacred in zazen. I would be able to understand when I study.” I understood to the innermost of the meaning of zazen practice even before I studied anything about it.
U: I see.
S: That was very miraculous. I grasped the real thing before studying about it.
U: I see.
S: Study is later [than experiencing the real thing].
U: I see.
S: Study is only about resides. Then I traveled to Amakusa in Kyushu without money.
U: Was that after the experience?
S: Yes, that was the sequence.
U: What do you mean?
S: I had to go through a lot of hardships.
U: Did you walk ploddingly all the way to Amakusa?
S: Yes, I went on foot.
U: What was your motivation?
S: My motivation? I found that I was not be able to become a monk at Eiheiji, [and I tried to find a priest who would ordain me, I could not find anyone.] One monk I knew at Eiheiji said that his master would be willing to make me his disciple. That was why I went to Amakusa. At first, that monk said that he would offer the travel expense to me. But when I was ready to go, he said that he did not have the money.
U: What?
S: If I went back [to my stepparents’ house], I had to do the lantern repairing work again.
U: I understand. Ha, ha, ha.
S: I would not like to live with my stepparents. I thought it would be better to go forward toward the direction I wished to go. I believed I would be able to manage somehow or another. Yes, I had a lot of hardships.
Zen and Studying Buddhism
U: By the way, at Horyuji,…..
S: Yes.
U: You studied Buddhim. Was that Yuishiki (Yogacara, consciousness only) teaching?
S: Yes, that is right.
U: Was the knowledge you attained through studying the Buddhist teachings meaningful in your later life?
S: Well, such Buddhist studies,…. In Nara, it is said that Yuishiki is about memorizing, Kusha (Abhidharma Kosa) is about getting used to.
U: Yes.
S: I studied Yuishiki-ron (texts on Yogacara teachings), Kusha-ron (Abhidharma Kosa) and so on.
U: Yes.
S: These are the rudiment study of Buddhist philosophy.
U: I understand.
S: Zen is beyond studying.
U: Yes.
S: And yet, after I became a professor of Komazawa University,…
U: Yes.
S: People thought that I had only practiced zazen. They did not know that I studied Yuishiki, Kusha and so on. My students said that Zen is great, without studying, everything I said was in accordance with Buddhist study. People said such a thing when I began to teach at Komazawa University.
U: I see. I don’t know much about Yuishiki and Kusha. In a sense, these have very strict logic.
S: Yes, these are very logical.
U: These have very precise logic, right?
S: Yes.
U: You studied such logical teachings and also practice Zen. It seems to me that Zen is transcending logic. I suppose not many Zen practitioners study Yuishiki and so on, do they?
S: You are correct. Because they do not study basic teachings of Buddhism, they become non-Buddhist.
U: I see. Ha, ha, ha.
S: However, that person (pointing to the photo of Rev. Ryoun Fueoka hanging in the room), who used to be a teacher at Sotoshu Daigakurin (presently Komazawa University) advised me, “If you practice Zen without understanding the basic study of Buddhist teachings, it is like to do merchandize without using a scale and a measure. It is very dangerous.” That was why, after Russo-Japan War, I went to Horyuji. Because I am a man of leisure, I studied there for eight years.
U: Is that right?
S: Yes. Because I was a “homeless,” I didn’t have my home to return. I didn’t need to go home. Because I did not need to go home, when other students went back to their home temples, at Horyuji, I studied Shobogenzo, and all other things.
Essence of Zen
U: I see. But, what is the most important trait of Zen? I know it is difficult to say in a few words.
S: Bodhidharma said, “Empty, without holiness.” This is it.
U: Yes.
S: “Empty, without holiness.” It is off the mark if there is even a particle of artificial dogmatism. There is not a bit of arbitrary view at all. Yes, “Empty, without holiness.” “Not seeking after the truth.”
U: Yes. “Not seeking after the truth.”
S: “Simply stop your personal view.” A view is how we see things [based on our karmic consciousness].
U: Yes. “Stop your personal view.” We should stop.
S: “Stop seeking after truth.” “Just stop your personal view.”
U: I see.
S: Then, things are just as they are. When we see them, each of us views them in various different ways. That is not right. When we say, I seek after the truth, the truth is different depending upon our karmic experiences.
U: Yes.
S: Therefore, we cannot tell whether what each of us view is really true or not. “Do not seek after the truth.” “Simply stop your personal view.” I interpret “to see” as making an arbitrary dogma.
U: I see.
S: “View is,…”
U: Yes.
S: The current problem of ideology is about the arbitrary dogma, isn’t it?
U: Well, yes, it is.
S: Then, finally, we have to stop talking and sit silently.
U: Ha, ha, ha. I understand.
S: Sitting is only thing we can do.
Zen and Science
U: Yes. Yes. In that case, today, science exercises its authority and influences every aspect of human life.
S: Yes. Yes.
U: Instead of stop talking,…
S: Yes.
U: Science creates various theories one after another and also produce so many things. All people study them. In general, as the driving force of the human civilization, we appreciate it. I feel Zen is going to entirely different direction from science.
S: Yes, these are going very different directions.
U: Then, from the standpoint of Zen, is there something wrong about science is doing now?
S: Science has no end point, does it?
U: No, but is there any end point in Zen?
S: Human being are used by science that has no end point, aren’t we?
U: Well,…
S: You said in Zen, but in the world of truth,…
U: Yes.
S: There is neither beginning nor end.
U: OK.
S: Always, either among the people in the primitive ages, or the people in the civilized ages, there is something common. Zen can go in the common realm in the same way. We can go in the same way, and yet, because of the development of science, all people in the world have anxieties. “If someone pushes the one button [of the nuclear weapon],…”
U: Yes.
S: Ha, ha, ha. We cannot say that there is no possibility that a crazy person pushes the button. Even if a crazy person push the button, the damage we would have should be the same. We cannot tell who are the civilized people. In comparison with such a situation, just sitting must be,….
U: Well.
S: Much safer. We human beings are getting busier and busier being used by scientific civilization. Ha, ha, ha.
Zazen and Formality
U: You said that Zen is seeing things as they really are. However, for example, in the case of zazen, the form is very strict. [Dogen Zenji] wrote in Shobogenzo much about formality.
S: Yes.
U: And also, another example is,… I heard that you have made a lot of efforts for studying the kashaya robe (okesa) and put emphasis on sewing and wearing authentic okesa. I don’t quite understand why such a strict formality has something to do with Zen practice [that has no forms or beyond formality]. It seems that such a strict formality is not necessary anymore. If Zen practice is just being as it is, why we need to adhere to such formalities?
S: There is nothing difficult in it.
U: Yes, no, no, but only,…
S: And yet, in the world of truth,… The form of zazen,… For example, when I do this (He pulled his eye’s eyelid down and stick out his tongue. In Japanese culture, this gesture called akanbe shows disrespect or disparagement to the person in front.), what do you feel?
U: I see.
S: Right! And when I put on okesa,…
U: Uum…
S: What do you feel? When I sat zazen, how people feel? When I was a young temple worker, even the kitchen hag made prostration to my zazen.
U: I see.
S: There is an important point there.
U: I see.
S: This is the reason, it is said [in Soto Zen tradition], “The dignified decorum is itself buddha dharma.” The buddha dharma is [practiced and expressed within formalities]. First of all, we should straighten ourselves and set to the right form. Dogen Zenji also put emphasis to practice with very strict forms.
U: OK.
S: In that sense, to straighten up ourselves within forms is important. Therefore, in my practice, I always say, “Wearing okesa and sit zazen, that is it.”
U: I see.
S: Right here, we find spiritual peace and upright way of life.
U: OK.
S: We don’t need anything else.
U: I see.
S: If you have wide knowledge about various studies, that is fine. If you don’t, that is fine too. You don’t need to give up what you already have. You don’t need to seek after something you don’t have yet. This is why people call my style of practice, Kesa School.
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: I am a priest of Kesa School. In my School, wearing okesa and sit zazen, that is all. You, see?
Zazen and Precepts
U: I understand. In that case, the Precepts,… People often talk about Buddhist precepts, such as the five precepts [for lay people] or the ten major precepts [for bodhisattvas],…
S: Yes.
U: What do you think about these precepts from the stand point of Zen?
S: Well. The standpoint? The origin of the precepts was that when some monks made mistakes, Shakyamuni Buddha admonished them [and said not to do such a thing again.]
U: I see.
S: When some one made misdeed about women, or picking up someone’s possessions and hide them, each time his disciples made misdeed, the Buddha made prohibition….. [But in Zen, for example] in the One-mind Precepts attributed to Bodhidharma, it is said, “Receiving in ‘receiving the precepts’ is transmitting.”
U: Uum.
S: And “transmitting is awakening.” Realization (satori),…
U: Uum.
S: “Realizing the Buddha mind is truly receiving the precepts.”
U: I see.
S: Therefore, realizing Shakyamuni Buddha’s mind is truly receiving the precepts.
U: I see.
S: This is why there is an expression, “Zen and the precepts are one (Zen-kai-ichinyo).” Zazen and the precepts (ethics) are one. When we are sitting zazen, we cannot commit adultery. While we are sitting, we cannot steal anything.
Leaving home
U: Roshi,…from my amateur point of view,…Originally Shakyamuni Buddha abandoned his family and left home. Since then, Buddhist monks have been called home-leavers. However, today, [Japanese] Buddhist priest/monks enter their home, instead of leaving home. Many of them have family. I think, this is very much different from the original way of Buddhist monk/priests should be. Could you speak what do you think about the current situation of Buddhism [in Japan]?
S: Japanese Buddhist monk/priests are not really home-leavers. Therefore, Menzan, a famous Japanese Soto Zen monk-scholar, said that, “To become a monk is not just moving from the building with thatched-roof (houses for lay people) to the tiled-roof building (Buddhist temples).”
U: Uum.
S: This kind of things have been said from the ancient times. If we are careless, to become a monk/priest simply means to change our business. But to become a monk should not be changing from one business to the other. I have been “homeless.” Kosho (Uchiyama) said, “You have been successful.”
U: Ha, ha, ha.
S: There are many different kinds of success.
U: And, so,…
S: I feel I have been most fortunate. Yes. Nothing is matter. I have nothing lacking. Here, I have nothing lacking, this, this, this,…
U: And yet, ordinary people think, they would have inconvenient lives in poverty. Then they learn some skills to get some profession. Even Buddhist priests work hard to increase the family members of their temples [to make their lives secure]. But Roshi, it seems all of your needs, either clothing and foods come naturally to you. This must be a mystery for many people.
S: This person (pointing to Rev. Kosho Uchiyama), had difficulties to live on begging (takuhatsu).
U: Really?
S: There is a poem by Daichi Zenji:
昼入荒村行乞食
夜帰林下坐安禅
出家親践古人道
糞掃許他迦葉伝
In the daytime, I go to a ramshackle village and practice begging foods.
In the evening, return to the temple in the forest and peacefully sit zazen.
Leaving home, I intimately practice the ancient people’s way.
Being permitted to receive the patched-robe transmitted from Mahakasyapa.
It is truly grateful for us to be able to live in this way. Because I had been busy to travel all over Japan, I did not have time to practice takuhatsu (begging) except when I was the leader of the training monks at a monastery.
U: Yes.
S: Because I am a master of nonpaying lodging. You see,…
U: I see. However, I suppose even Zen priests desire to live with their family and relatives, surrounded by their children when they are aged. Don’t you wish to live such a way at all? For example, having children,….
S: Uum.
U: Have you ever compare your current life with the life with family?
S: Well, I think,….
U: What I don’t understand is that when aged, I suppose people usually become fainthearted and want to live with beloved grandchildren.
S: Ha, ha, ha.
U: I sometime think that it might be desirable to live together with babies or small grandchildren.
S: No. I never think of children [or any family connection.].
U: Is that right?
S: I think I am fortunate. If I have children or grandchildren, I need to take care of them or worry about them. It is not easy, but I am alone. And I live lacking nothing. This is really grateful. Even though, I am a “homeless,” I can stay a place like this, even though it is not a luxurious but rather a tumbledown building. It is wonderful. Here we have many different kinds of wild vegetables. And they cook them for me. I can see birds flying. In the autumn, I can see the beautiful colors of leaves. It becomes bright red. Really, there is no one who is happier than me. Ha, ha, ha.
Role of Buddhism in the modern society
U: I see. Finally, I would like to ask you to talk about the role of Buddhism in the modern society. What can Buddhism contribute to the people in the modern society? I think many people are interested in this point.
S: Many people talk about some “contribution” Buddhism can offer. But many of them don’t really understand what Buddhism is and who Shakyamuni Buddha was. I mean, why Shakyamuni left home? What was his realization? This is the very important point. It is difficult to really understand, but this is important. And yet, such essential points are lacking in the Buddhist temples and empty temple buildings and memorial services for family members and so on are remaining. What is the most essential thing? If we say that is satori, that is a mistake. If we say that is practice, that is also a mistake. After all, that is to discover the true self and live out the true self. In other word, all people become “homeless.”
U: I undestand.
S: It is a mistake to think that we have “home.” People compete to get the “home.” Ha, ha, ha.
U: You said that it is best if all people become “homeless.” I think it is very difficult.
S: It is a mistake to think that we have “home.”
U: I see. But how did you reach such a state of mind?
S: Originally all human beings are “homeless.”
U: I understand but, all people, starting from being “homeless,” work hard to build their “home” don’t they?
S: Then they struggle and compete each other to get more than others.
U: That is true.
S: When we compete with others to get more, we are in the realm of asura (fighting spirit). We are all ordinary deluded human beings.
U: yes.
S: We all makes mistakes.
U: Yes.
S: We need to accept and forgive each other’s mistakes as a custom and support each other. This is the only way we can live.
U: Ha, ha, ha. We run out of time. Thank you very much for a long time.